The Truth About Greenwashing and Corporate Lies with John Pabon

Interview with John Pabon

How companies fake caring to win over your trust and your cash: 🌍💸🔍

Bruce Anthony: [00:00:01] What if a company wasn’t just selling you a product, but they were also selling you a lie? We gonna get into it. Let’s get it

Bruce Anthony: [00:00:20] Welcome. First of all, welcome. This is “Unsolicited Perspectives.” I am your host, Bruce Anthony, here to lead the conversation into important events and topics that are shaping today’s society. Join the conversation and follow us wherever you get your audio podcasts. Subscribe to our YouTube channel for our video podcast, YouTube exclusive content, and our YouTube membership.

[00:00:39] Rate, review, like, comment, share. Share with your friends, share with your family. Hell, even share with your enemies. On today’s episode, I’m talking to John Pabon, author and sustainability expert. We’re gonna be talking about greenwashing, the art of making companies look like they’re doing good, and how to recognize when what somebody is saying and what they’re actually doing are two different things.

[00:01:03] But that’s enough of the intro. Let’s get to the show

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Bruce Anthony: [00:01:06] There is something uniquely painful about finding out that somebody you believed in was lying to you. It doesn’t even have to be some huge betrayal. Maybe it’s a friend who told you that they had your back, and you later found out that they were talking about you behind your back. Maybe it’s somebody you were dating who told you that they wanted the same things that you did, only for you to realize that they were telling you what you wanted to hear.

[00:01:39] Or maybe it’s somebody you looked up to who spent years telling you that they believed in something, and then you watch their actions tell a completely different story. And that’s the part that really gets you. It’s not just that they lied, it’s that you believed them. You gave them your trust. And once somebody has your trust, they don’t have to convince you every single time about certain things.

[00:02:05] You start doing the work for them. You believe what they tell you. You defend them. You give them the benefit of a

Why companies sell you trust long before they sell a product: 🏢🤝💰

Bruce Anthony: [00:02:13] doubt. You keep coming back, and it’s because trust is valuable. But sometimes the reason somebody’s working so hard to convince you of something isn’t because they care It’s because there’s something that they want from you.

[00:02:31] And that’s where this gets real interesting when we move from people to companies. Because companies aren’t just selling us products anymore. They’re selling us identities. They’re telling us what they believe. They’re telling us what they stand for. They’re telling us that they’re helping the planet.

[00:02:48] They’re telling us that they’re committed to diversity, sometimes. They’re telling us that they stand with marginalized communities, sometimes. They’re telling us that they’re making the world better. And sometimes, sometimes they really are. But also, sometimes they’re not. Sometimes the product is only part of what they’re selling.

[00:03:11] They’re selling you the idea that buying from them makes you a better person. And if you believe that, you’re giving them something far more valuable than your money. You’ve given them your trust. That’s where this idea of greenwashing comes in. A company can make itself look environmentally responsible without actually doing the work necessary to deserve that reputation. They can give you the campaigns, they can give you the commercials, they can give you the sustainability reports.

[00:03:41] They can give you the beautiful language about changing the world. And if you believe the story, you might give them your money because you believe supporting something bigger than yourself is important. But if you pay attention, and sometimes it’s suddenly, some of these commitments start disappearing. Some companies stop talking about it. Some cut programs. Some back away from the very things that they loudly told us that they believed in. So what happens when a company tells you one thing, but their actions tell you something completely different?

[00:04:16] That’s greenwashing. It can also be DEI washing. It’s performative activism. Or is there a bigger system at work here? Because maybe the real question isn’t simply, is this company lying? Maybe the question is, what do they get from me if I believe them? And that’s what we’re gonna talk about today. My guest has spent more than two decades studying this world from the inside.

[00:04:43] Jon Pabon started his career from, with the United Nations and worked for many different Fortune 500 companies, governments, and organizations around the world, and eventually founded his own company, Fulcrum Strategy Advisors. He’s also the author of three books, Sustainability For The Rest of Us, The Great Greenwashing, and his newest book, Strategic Sustainability. So today we’re gonna be talking about what happens when doing good becomes a business strategy, how companies convince us they’re doing good things that they aren’t actually doing, and how we can recognize the difference. And ultimately, how do you know who to believe? So without further ado, Jon

Meet John Pabon and learn how the big brands bamboozle all of us: 🎭🛍🧐

Bruce Anthony: [00:05:27] Pabon

[00:05:29] As I said at the top, I’m here with John Pabon. He has worked in Fortune 500 boardrooms. He’s an author, written a lot of books on sustainability and greenwashing. We’re gonna get into how these institutions bambooles- bamboozle us and fool us. And, and I’m excited to get into this conversation because I’ma be real honest, I’m not ignorant to companies bamboozling us.

[00:05:55] Uh, but I am entering— uh, ignorant in a lot of these topics that we’re gonna talk about today. So I, I’m gonna learn. I know my audience is gonna learn. So John, it’s my pleasure to have you on the show to talk about these issues

John Pabon: [00:06:07] No, thanks for having me. We need to use bamboozle much more than we do

Bruce Anthony: [00:06:11] Look, I, and I, I’m gonna be very honest. I stole that from Spike Lee, watching that movie Bamboozled from back in the day. I, uh, and, and if you know the context of that movie, it falls in line with a lot of what we’re gonna be discussing today of tomfoolery and sleight of hand, and look over here while my hand is in your pocket.

[00:06:33] Um, so but before we get into all of that, John, I start every conversation by going back to the beginning. ‘Cause you’re in Australia right now, but you grew up in SoCo, Southern Cal. What was your childhood like, your home, your upbringing, and how did lessons from you growing up lead to what you became now in life?

John Pabon: [00:07:00] Yeah, it’s a really interesting question, right? And I think I’ve, I’ve thought about this quite a bit in terms of do I have kind of a, not a, not a villain origin story, but an origin story as to why I do what I do. And, and I’m sure a lot of people say this, but I think it goes back to my mom. She was just a very big proponent of equity and equality for sort of everybody.

[00:07:20] And, uh, I think about my family and my sisters and, and my brother, and everybody sort of went into some sort of a caring profession in some respect as an adult. So she, she must have had an impact somehow in how she, she brought us up. So I think really that’s kind of it. And then Southern California just in general is a pretty, at least when I was growing up, you know, 40-ish years ago, was a pretty egalitarian type of a society.

[00:07:43] You know, it’s, it’s fairly hippie-ish. My mom was a big hippie, so I am sure that played into it a lot as well to kind of push me towards something that’s a bit more caring than just working at a corporate office trying to take money from people.

Bruce Anthony: [00:07:56] Hmm. Um, okay. How does that So- Soco kid, um, that has a mom that’s a little bit of a hippie, um,

John Pabon: [00:08:06] a lot of a hippie. We didn’t even wear, we didn’t even wear shoes at home. That’s the kind of hippie I’m talking about. We walked around without shoes, like outside, that kind of a hippie.

Bruce Anthony: [00:08:15] Okay. That’s also country. That’s also country. So, uh, hippie and country. Okay, so how does that kid end up at the United Nations?

John Pabon: [00:08:24] It’s a funny journey, right? So when I was in school, I studied music, so that’s, that’s what I did all through sort of middle school, high school. It’s what I wanted my career to be. And about a year into that at university, I realized, hey, there’s… And this is gonna be contrary to what I literally just said, but I, I sort of thought to myself, “There’s no money in this,” which is counterintuitive, but there really isn’t.

[00:08:47] It’s a really, it’s a really tough slog to try to be a musician. So I was like, “Okay, let’s, let’s explore a little bit. You’re in college. Figure out what you want.” And I went into sort of political science as my very last undergraduate requirement course. I was like, “I, I have no interest in this stuff. I, it’s just not for me.”

[00:09:04] And so I put it off to the very end, and I had an instructor, like I’m sure a lot of people do, that just totally changed my perspective on things. And they were very pro sort of international organizations and steered me towards the United Nations. So went to New York to kind of get close to the United Nations to do my graduate degree, and coincidentally found myself working there as I was doing my grad degree, and the rest is kind of history.

Bruce Anthony: [00:09:28] How does that transformation work from a visual aspect of the society that you’re living around when you, uh, you’re growing up in Southern California, which is completely different than New York and just the environment and the, and the nature and the, the pace and pulse of the city. How is that change for you personally to go from peace and love, to get to college to say, “I need some bread,” to end up in New York City?

John Pabon: [00:10:04] It’s kind of that, that growth that I’m sure a lot of people go through, right? Of, of, oh my God, I’m an adult and I actually have to pay for things. Mom and dad aren’t paying for it anymore. So, so you, you end up… And, and this is something I’m sure we’ll get into in, in a little while. I call myself a pragmatic altruist.

[00:10:17] I, I care about things, absolutely, but I’m also pretty realistic about what’s important and, and what we need to do. You know, you can’t survive in the world without money, so you realize that, uh, pretty quickly when you leave home. But absolutely when you’re trying to, trying to get by in New York City as, you know, a 20-something grad student, you really learn the importance of money and saving it and earning it, and you see it all around you.

[00:10:38] So you’re right. It’s the, the visual aspect of just that, that massive switch. And I don’t want any hate from people from SoCal, but, uh, I feel I’m much more East Coast than West Coast. So that’s kind of been the trajectory from there on out too, because everywhere I’ve lived since then has been essentially one of the world’s mega cities.

[00:10:55] So I think I’ve really kind of embraced that, that speed and that type of life versus the, the no shoes on the street, um, hippie Southern California life. I appreciate the beach, but yeah, I’d rather be in a

Bruce Anthony: [00:11:08] doesn’t love the beach? Yeah. Um, uh, how, how does that work for you to move to New York, work for the United Nations, which I’m sure pays, but then go to working in these Fortune 500 boardrooms and then focusing specifically, which I guess still comes from your hippie upbraving, upbringing in SoCo to say, “Ah, okay, I, I gotta make this money.

[00:11:36] I still wanna make

From the UN to Shanghai and a first career in sustainability: 🌐🏙🌱

Bruce Anthony: [00:11:38] the world a better place. So how can I do both at the same time?” How did, how did you make that transition in New York, United Nations boardrooms, studying, uh, on the ground with factories and farms and, and working on sustainability?

John Pabon: [00:11:55] It was really by accident. So I was in New York. I, I was at the United Nations for several years and realized, uh, through a lot of mentorship there and, and great people, they sort of said, “Hey, this isn’t really a place you start your career. It’s more a place where you end your career, because, uh, as, as you end your career, you have all this experience.

[00:12:12] You can come in at a different level and have more sort of seniority.” So a-and I, I agreed with that. It’s an amazing place. I don’t discount the organization. I still advise the UN in, in a lot of respects, but, uh, not really the best place when you’re right out of school. So I thought, “Okay, well, let’s get some experience, some, some rungs on the ladder in other places.”

[00:12:30] So went into the consulting world. That seemed to be the best fit, but was always working with sort of the public sector clients, so those that were more caring than just, uh, pure corporate actors, right? So that was always kind of the trajectory. But then I went on a trip to, to Shanghai, just summer vacation, and kind of fell in love with the place, so decided to move there.

[00:12:52] But I needed to figure out a way to take all of that experience that I had in the, the public sector, working with those companies in the UN, in a very commercial city. So for anybody who hasn’t been to Shanghai, it is kind of capitalism on steroids. It is money, money, money, money, money, money, money. So I landed in sustainability, which for me is kind of the intersection between doing good and the corporate world, which is my sort of area of sustainability, which again, I’m sure we’ll talk about.

[00:13:21] But I, I needed to figure out a way to, to live in that city and do the work that I liked doing. So for me, sustainability seemed

What sustainability actually means far beyond hugging the trees: 🌳 ♻ 📘

John Pabon: [00:13:28] the right fit. And back when I started in this field, it wasn’t even called that. We were calling it things like CSR or charity, so it was very, very sort of the, the starting point of the sustainability practice as a profession, and very, very different than what it looks like today.

Bruce Anthony: [00:13:45] We have said this word a lot, uh, and I’m sure some people in my audience are gonna be like, “What the hell are they talking about sustainability?” Because as what happens with a lot of words, certain villains get ahold of certain words and change the actual meaning and understanding around it. So from somebody who has worked in it for years, can you explain to my audience what we’re referring to when we say sustainability?

John Pabon: [00:14:18] And that is the right question to ask, and it doesn’t get asked nearly enough. And it’s not even the villains that mess with the definition. We do it internally in the profession too, because if I was to ask five even sustainability professionals to define what that means, I’m gonna get 100 different answers because we don’t have a shared definition.

[00:14:33] So for me, and I think honestly for probably a good majority of my colleagues, sustainability is an umbrella term for anything that relates to doing good for the planet or for society. So a lot of times you hear sustainability and you think the green side of things, so hugging the trees, saving the polar bears.

[00:14:52] That’s fine. That’s important. It’s not the area I specialize in. I actually find it kind of boring, but that’s just one small area of the sustainability world. We also have the entire social conversation, so that’s DEI, inclusion, uh, animal rights, labor rights, human welfare. That sort of spot is where I have spent most of my time and the part I find most interesting.

[00:15:13] And then you have the really boring stuff, which is the governance stuff. It’s important, but it’s basically how we monitor and track and make sure we’re keeping on track with the goals that we’ve set for ourselves. That’s— includes

So who is actually checking these companies? Basically no one: 🏢🔍 ⚖

John Pabon: [00:15:25] communications and strategy and all that sort of thing that even though I called it boring, it’s sort of where I sit currently in, uh, my evolution as a professional.

[00:15:33] So you can see just from that, it includes basically everything. So sustainability, again, an umbrella term for anything that does good for the planet or society.

Bruce Anthony: [00:15:43] And, and so if there is, if you say there are 100 different people in your field that could give 100 different answers, how can you actually, besides that umbrella term that you just gave me, how can you actually define it? And, and, and better yet, who actually is the con- mm, what’s the right word for this? I hate using this term, but overseer of making sure these companies are doing sustainable things. For instance, if you’re working for a corporation, who’s checking the corporation

John Pabon: [00:16:25] That is our Achilles heel. That and comm— really bad communication. So it’s the oversight, and the reason we haven’t done more than we have, and, and I’ll back up one quick s- one quick sec. A lot of what we’re probably going to talk about today and how it’s gonna come out of my mouth may sound pessimistic, but I’m not a pessimist.

[00:16:43] I’m actually quite optimistic about what’s happening, what the future holds. It doesn’t look that way right now on paper, I get that. You turn on, you know, the news or you, you read social media and it looks like we’re, we’re screwed. But I, I really don’t honestly in my heart of hearts believe that. So take everything that, that I’m saying not necessarily as pessimistic as it, as it may come out this morning.

[00:17:02] So there is no oversight of all of this in a way that would actually move the needle in the right direction. It’s a lot of self-governance. So these organizations, by and large, are monitoring themselves. The only time they’re not is when they do something really, really bad that then the public gets involved or a regulator gets involved to smack them on the wrist, give them a little bit of a fine and say, “Hey, don’t do that again,” even though we know they’re probably gonna do that again.

[00:17:29] So a lot of it is self-governing, which is something that people have tried to change, but it is very slow-going, and you can imagine why. These companies aren’t going to give up their power in the same sense lobbyists aren’t gonna give up their power in, you know, capital cities around the world. These companies and their boardrooms are not giving up power easily to consultants like myself either.

Bruce Anthony: [00:17:49] What’s the incentive for the companies to even do it if there isn’t any real oversight unless something catastrophic happens?

John Pabon: [00:17:58] It’s the— So it’s for companies to have a 20 or 30 year mindset and to see really into the future because honestly, if we’re thinking, let’s go, I don’t have a crystal ball, but let’s just go 10 years into the future. And, and we can already see the trajectory of this from, you know, just 10 years in the past.

[00:18:15] Companies that don’t play ball, companies that aren’t doing something good for society or the planet, they’re not really gonna have a place to play anymore. I mean, I, I don’t wanna talk about capitalism per se because I’m sure there’s some genius working on a different system, but it’s what we have for the moment.

[00:18:30] One of the few silver linings of capitalism is that companies respond to the way people spend their money. So if people are increasingly not spending money at companies that don’t align with their values, which we know statistically is absolutely happening, then those

Target, the DEI rollbacks and the big problem with utopia today: 🎯🚫 ⚖

John Pabon: [00:18:43] companies are either, A, going to have to change the ways they’re doing things, which is how we push the sustainability conversation, or they’re not gonna have a place anymore and people aren’t gonna buy from them and they’ll go out of business.

[00:18:54] That’s pretty simplistic and it’s, it’s extremely optimistic, but that ideally is what we’re trying to get to.

Bruce Anthony: [00:19:02] Yeah, I, and, and, and I hear everything that you’re saying, and I think in, in a really utopian type of society, that would be correct. And I know we’ll get into this later, but let’s skip ahead a little bit. It doesn’t seem like Target, for instance, or Amazon is really hurting for funds when they have— they were DEI initiatives, and we’ll get into really specific later

John Pabon: [00:19:34] Target bugs the hell out of me, honestly. That’s so sad to see.

Bruce Anthony: [00:19:37] It, but, but I’m not seeing… Their, their pocketbooks have been hurt, maybe not to the point where they would need to change, but they decided to strip away all DEI programs sorta kind of, and, and there’s been a backlash from, uh, people of color community to not go to Target, and they still haven’t changed.

[00:20:02] They haven’t budged. So my only pushback to that is, is that, yeah, normally that would work, but it seems like with certain social issues, companies can just say, “Well, I don’t really give a damn. We’re just gonna wait it out and see what happens.”

John Pabon: [00:20:16] Yeah, and I, I agree 100% with that, and it is that, that utopian vision. I think that’s a perfect way to frame that. Uh, what I want people listening or watching to think of when they think of anything around s- that umbrella term of sustainability is maybe switch our perceptions a bit from an idea of utopia, which I think a lot of people have that image, and that’s, honestly, that’s on the fault of, of all of us in the profession for pushing that, which is n-not really what we should’ve been pushing.

[00:20:40] We should’ve been pushing this idea of, and people are not gonna like to hear this, but it’s absolutely true, incremental change in the right direction. That’s slow. That doesn’t get us where we need to go fast enough. I get that. But honestly, it’s probably as good as we’re gonna get in our lifetimes. And so if we approach it from that perspective instead of pushing for a utopian vision, ‘cause nothing we do is utopian.

[00:21:02] It’s not nearly as easy as flipping a switch and making it happen. I wish it was. I wish I was out of a job. But that’s not gonna happen. I have great job security, unfortunately. So, so moving the needle in the right direction is what we should be asking for. From a, a personal perspective for individuals that see all this pushing crap uphill every day and it’s not worth the fight, if you change your perspective that way, you go, “Oh, I can see the positive things happening and it’s not so bad.

[00:21:26] I’ll continue to do the work that I need to do, and I’ll continue to push for the right things.” So it’s about switching that. For organizations as well, companies inside, that’s also the trajectory. It’s not perfection, and a lot of companies are absolutely egregious in the terrible things they do. There’s not— uh, uh, we’re not limited with that.

[00:21:42] We can have a talk about them for days on end. But internally, if they’re moving the needle in the right direction, for me, that is a win. Some companies will never do that. Some companies, like some of the ones you mentioned, are, are going backwards really, really fast. And I don’t know, I’m not gonna stand behind a, a train that’s running backwards.

[00:21:58] You know, it’s, it’s not on me. They’re gonna, you know, hopefully dig their, dig their own graves. But for most companies, not just in the United States, although that’s where most companies are based, you have to remember these are global organizations. While Target is a great example, they may be doing horrendous things in the United

Inside the boardroom where the whole facade finally fell apart: 🏭👀🎭

John Pabon: [00:22:14] States, their operations in other parts of the world are doing okay things.

[00:22:19] Unfortunately, what’s happening in the US is getting the lion’s share of the media, rightly so. But that’s why I say when, especially Target, it just aggravates me because I know they’re doing okay things in other parts of the world, but the US is just screwing things up for the rest of the organization.

Bruce Anthony: [00:22:33] Yeah. I mean, that kinda happens. Um, you’re in these boardrooms, you are seeing what’s going on, and maybe you start to see that some of these campaigns, whether it’s green or whether it’s social issues, starts out doing good and then maybe some situation like Target, not specifically Target, but a situation like Target, you see, “Oh, wait a minute, this was all a facade.”

[00:23:05] When did that moment kinda happen to, for you and, and what did that say to you about what you were doing as far as working with these companies and the companies themselves?

John Pabon: [00:23:18] Yeah, and I mentioned this just briefly a second ago. Communications is sort of our Achilles heel. We’re really bad at it. We’re really bad at talking about the things we’re doing, and companies are even worse. They’re, they’re, they’re not really— I don’t know why this is. I don’t know why companies doing the right thing don’t talk about it more.

[00:23:34] Recently they have, but I, I, I think that’s just them trying to make a buck. But in, in the past, we’re talking ten, 15 years ago, companies just wouldn’t do it. And I think it was probably a combination of, you know, we’re doing this because we actually care, so we shouldn’t boast about it, we shouldn’t market it.

[00:23:48] And that wasn’t really great because we needed those companies to talk about that to encourage others to do the same thing. That’s not what transpired. Now companies are, are latching onto marketing as a way just to make a quick buck. And when we talk about greenwashing, which is essentially when a, a company mostly, but also individuals and governments will wrap themselves in this language of sustainability when the truth isn’t as sustainable.

[00:24:11] It’s been going on for a very, very long time. Companies are now starting to, to really latch on to that as a way to make more money and pretend like they’re doing good for society or the planet. My kind of aha moment was really when I was working in, in China, and I spent a lot of time in and out of factories, more time than I care to remember.

[00:24:32] And I, I saw the things happening behind the scenes in places that a lot of people would never in their entire lives visit or even know about. And I thought, “Why aren’t people talking about this more? Why don’t more people know about this?” So I, I was approaching this kind of from maybe the reverse of what you, what you sort of asked.

[00:24:49] I saw the good things happening and why it wasn’t communicated, which then led me to think about the opposite of, okay, well, if there’s good things happening not being communicated, then there’s probably bad things happening as well that are being communicated. So then I took sort of this more pessimistic lens of everything and realized, oh my gosh, as you start to peel back the layers of the onion, yeah, it’s, it’s really bad out there.

[00:25:10] So the companies doing the not great things and not using marketing the right way far outweigh the companies that are doing the right thing. So my perspective on everything related to sustainability communications really is getting the companies doing the right thing to talk more about it as a way to counter the companies doing the

John Pabon: [00:25:27] wrong thing.

[00:25:28] The companies that are greenwashing, they’re investing so much money and effort into doing these more sophisticated lies that it is really hard to push back against them. So I figured, okay, let’s promote the ones doing the right thing first. That seems like an easier way in.​

Bruce Anthony: [00:25:42] You’ve kind of, you kind of given a definition, but I’m gonna ask you to, to simplify it just a little bit more on what exactly is greenwashing. And in your book, you divide it into three tiers with companies, governments, and, and individuals backslash influencers. Can you give me an example of each using greenwashing?

John Pabon: [00:26:13] Absolutely. So just absolutely simplified, greenwashing is any time somebody or a company lies to you about their sustainability credentials. That’s it. There’s different types of it, right? So there’s the really bad stuff, and we tend to see that from the highly polluting industries like the fossil fuel and extractive industries.

[00:26:31] The defense industry tends to use greenwashing, which is weird because they kill people, so you can’t be sustainable. That’s not how it works. Uh, tobacco does the same thing. They like to pretend they’re green when they kill their customers. So for anybody wondering what I’m talking about, uh, human rights and not doing harm is sort of the basis for everything related to

Greenwashing finally defined and its three very sneaky tiers: 🏢🏛📢

John Pabon: sustainability.

[00:26:49] If you kill your consumers, you fail right out of the gate. So that, that is what greenwashing essentially is. And the other end of the spectrum, sometimes it’s accidental. A company may be starting their sustainability journey, and they say the wrong thing, or the regulator changed a requirement, and they messed up.

[00:27:07] We can fix those. That’s fine. It’s, it’s the more egregious kind of outright lies that I am, I’m really concerned about. So you’re right. There are different groups. Now, when I started the book, I was just gonna for- focus on corporates. I thought that’s enough to create a book out of. Great. Be done. Then I started researching, and the book kind of got bigger and bigger and bigger because I realized, okay, it’s not just companies doing it.

[00:27:28] Governments do it. They love to do it. They love to sign these pledges that they know they’re never gonna be, uh, you know, accountable to. Then, of course, there’s celebrities love to do it. They give just a little bit to their favorite cause, and then they go off into their private jets. Uh, influencers are starting to do it as well, international organizations, all these sorts of groups love to pretend they’re sustainable and good for the planet and society when the reality is, is not nearly that case.

[00:27:53] The corporate world, we have decades and decades and decades of examples. I think the one that might surprise people the most is actually the first example of greenwashing that we have kind of in modern history, and it’s something we all know really, really well. Anytime you go to a hotel and you go to the bathroom, what do you see?

[00:28:10] There’s usually a little plastic placard there that says to hang up your towel

Bruce Anthony: [00:28:13] Mm-hmm.

John Pabon: [00:28:14] That’s greenwashing. Because hotels didn’t start that back in the ’50s and ’60s because they cared so much about the planet, which is essentially what the, the placard says. They did it because water’s really expensive, and they do a lot of laundry.

[00:28:26] So they were looking for a way to save on water. And now, you know, it’s great. Yeah, hang up your towels. Absolutely. You know, do, you say, do, do your bit, but don’t do it thinking you’re doing a good thing for the planet. You’re helping the, the bottom line of that hotel. That’s honestly what’s, what’s going on.

[00:28:41] So that’s a really simple example that people may not realize. When it comes to countries and international organizations, we see this a lot as well, particularly now with lots of companies signing these net zero by 2040, 2050 pledges that honestly most politicians in the democratic world are not gonna be on the hook for because they’ll be out of power in a few years.

[00:29:02] So they’re signing checks that they know they’re not gonna have to cash. Celebrities, influencers, the ultra, the ultra-wealthy. Um, my next book is, and it’ll be out next year, called “Eat the Rich.” It’s all about the ultra-wealthy. Uh, it’s a, a small chapter in “The Great Greenwashing” that I thought, “Okay, I need to give more time to this,” so I, I made a whole book about it.

[00:29:21] But my least favorite favorite factoid about the

Is Facebook greenwashing us all when the community turns toxic: 📱 ⚠ 👥

John Pabon: [00:29:25] ultra-wealthy is that the top 50 richest people in the world will emit more carbon in 90 minutes than the average person does in an entire lifetime.

Bruce Anthony: [00:29:34] Wow

John Pabon: [00:29:35] But yet they tell us to make sure we’re using paper straws. So all of that is, are different forms of greenwashing, and we can go on for days with the different examples, but I’m sure anybody listening and watching will, uh, get fed up really, really quickly and start banging their head against a wall if we do that.

Bruce Anthony: [00:29:51] I, I am curious, is this a form of greenwashing now that you bring that up? Social media, let’s say Facebook, ‘cause he had to just sign… Zuckerberg had to just sign a big, uh, a big check to, uh, basically say I’m sorry. Whether or not you th- you believe he is, uh, the real-life version of Lex Luthor, he seemed like in the beginning what he wanted to do was create community through technology, right?

[00:30:21] That that seemed like a good cause, but later on money got involved, ads and algorithms, and then an addiction crisis happened because of it. Is that a form of greenwashing where you’re starting out to essentially help people, but then the thing that you’ve created is actually hurting them, but you still try to say, “Well, is it really?”

John Pabon: [00:30:49] I would classify it as that. I, I think most people m- probably would not, and the reason is it’s not technically greenwashing until there’s a lie involved. So if— Well, actually, no, scratch that, because Facebook still does push this idea that they’re community led. So yeah, it’s greenwashing. Let’s say that.

[00:31:06] I, I, I absolutely think so. The, the trajectory of where Zuckerberg and the corporation, like you said, from, from Harvard to today is very different. I remember when The Facebook started. I remember at my university when we got the, you know, we were part of the, the, the group that got it this particular week or month or whatever it was.

[00:31:24] Because for anybody who’s, who’s too young, not everybody could access Facebook at the beginning. It went to your university first. You had… Yep.

Bruce Anthony: [00:31:31] college email.

John Pabon: [00:31:32] And it got rolled out, and there was a lot of hype around it, and I remember when it happened, and it was great at the beginning, and then it became what it unfortunately is today, which, uh, yeah, Lex Luther is being nice.

Bruce Anthony: [00:31:44] Um, greenwashing is not just

The black squares back in 2020 and the total silence by 2024: ✊🟦🤐

Bruce Anthony: [00:31:49] relegated to, um, the sustainability. Well, you, you put sustainability as a big umbrella of helping all, but most people, even with that definition, they’re still gonna harken back to what they think sustainability is, which is their environment. But you make the case that this same practice is being used when we talking about the social issues.

[00:32:15] We touched on Target earlier, but I remember 2020. The world is shut down. Everybody’s posting those black squares, everybody, ‘cause of George Floyd, right? Everybody. There’s a Black… I’m right here in Washington, DC going right down to Black Lives Matter Plaza, riding my bike down there almost every day.

[00:32:36] People are out there. It was a continuous celebration of Black Lives Matter. And then 2024 happens, and there’s this whole shift, and all those companies, or a lot of those companies that posted that black square disappear. Target wasn’t the only one. Did you see that coming ahead of time because you were working in the field and had seen stuff like that, specifically speaking to social issues that were much smaller, that wasn’t universally looked at?

[00:33:12] That was this little campaign, and you’re like, “Yep, nope, I saw that coming.”

John Pabon: [00:33:19] What’s interesting with Black Lives Matter is I didn’t see that coming because the, the w- I don’t wanna use the word wave. That’s not the right word. I think that discounts the importance of it. But w- but it, it was a wave, and I, I didn’t think the boomerang effect would be as hard. But with other social campaigns, we see it all the time, whether that’s women’s rights, and companies love to talk about how much they care for women when it’s International Women’s Day, and then they forget about women the other three 64 days of the year.

[00:33:47] Uh, LGBTQ rights, where a company will put up a pride flag during June because it’s Gay Rights Month and then take it down the next month, right? So we, we see it quite a bit. Now, with Black Lives Matter, it was very interesting that it wasn’t just a United States thing. I was here in Australia while everything was going on in 2000, and it was just as prevalent here.

[00:34:08] The, the social issues around, uh, indigenous communities here have a lot of similarities and, and parallels to what happens and what’s going on in the US. So that made sense here, but other parts of the world as well. Companies that sort of jumped on, we’re gonna call that a bandwagon because they weren’t genuine with what they were doing, were obviously the first to kind of get rid of, of anything they were doing.

[00:34:31] And an interesting example from the time was a, a Pepsi commercial. So Kylie Jenner had a commercial that most people probably didn’t see because it was pulled within 24 hours because people were so angry about just how flippant she was towards Black Lives Matter. She had a, a, a, a can of, of Pepsi and went to a police officer.

[00:34:52] There was sort of this protest on the street, the lines of police officers and the lines of protesters that we were s- seeing at the time, you know, and people were getting the crap beat out of them for this. And she hands a

American Eagle, Sydney Sweeney and the rise of the bluewashing: 🦅🩵🚩

John Pabon: [00:35:01] Pepsi to the cop, and she solves systemic police brutality and, and centuries of injustice in the United States just by doing that.

[00:35:08] And people were like, “Mm-mm. Mm-mm-mm. Take it down.” And so it was taken down. And that’s the sort of thing we tend to see quite a bit is a, a missed advert or a, a misplaced press conference about things that people then jump on and say, “Hey, are you really genuine about this? Or, you know, is there something else going on behind the scenes?”

[00:35:28] Now, as I say that, I’m not encouraging whataboutism, right? Because that happens a lot as well. A company will talk about a good thing that they’re doing, and people go, “Eh, what about this?” I’m not saying that, but in some situations, absolutely you need to call these companies out. A, a very recent example of this i- was the American Eagle controversy with Sydney Sweeney, where she had her, her ad with the…

[00:35:49] I mean, it was a eugenic dog whistle. Like, let’s be honest, the whole thing was an absolute racist dog whistle. But American Eagle got up and said, “Oh, no, that’s not what we meant.” And at the same time as that’s happening, you look at their background and some of the causes they say they support, and a lot of it is around equality for young girls, about, uh, you know, eating disabil- uh, disorders and, and disabilities.

[00:36:12] So something’s not matching up with what’s happening on screen with their adverts and what they’re saying they support behind the scenes. Not to add another phrase or a term to confuse people, but we call that blue washing. So it’s a, a subset of green— There’s lots of different washings. It’s a subset of greenwashing that looks totally at social issues.

[00:36:31] So it’s when a, a company essentially says they support a social issue when you know they don’t

Bruce Anthony: [00:36:38] Could it be both things are true? Could they, could they be supportive of women, all women, and eating disorders and all of that, and just be ignorant to, “Oh, we didn’t recognize this commercial would be offensive”? I, I say that as…

John Pabon: [00:36:59] easy.

Bruce Anthony: [00:37:00] Yeah. I say that

John Pabon: [00:37:01] think it is

Bruce Anthony: [00:37:03] uh, uh, well, I say that as, uh, I, I literally had this conversation earlier with an individual, and we were ar- d- debating an, an, an interesting debate about a particular song and if it was racist or not, and this person was White and I’m of course Black.

[00:37:20] And I said, “Uh, how can you actually be the decider of what something is when you are not tied to that particular thing at all? You’re not Black. You can’t tell me what is and isn’t racist.” And I had a woman tell me one time, which it says misogynist. When I was young, I would push back and say, “Well, no, it wasn’t.”

[00:37:43] As I got older, I said, “Okay, I didn’t mean it that way. Let me understand what it was that I did or said.” So are there examples of companies like what Pepsi did, like what, uh, American Eagle did, where they release an advertisement, it upsets a segment of the population and they say, “Oh, wait a minute. We had no idea,” and then actually try to make amends to that community

John Pabon: [00:38:11] So the, the underlying foundation, I think with all of these examples is the ones you gave and then the American Eagle and Pepsi is, uh, lived experience, right? So, so a lot of people will absolutely and probably rightly take offense when, for example, I have a lived experience in a particular thing. You may not have that same lived experience, but you want to tell me what my lived experience is, right?

[00:38:34] We see this happen all the time, and that’s what leads to a lot of, of arguments or heated debates. I think the difference when it comes to corporations, even though it does relate to lived experience, is, and I’m gonna paint it with a very broad stroke here, you get these boardrooms of pale male stale people who ha- are so out of touch with society, right?

[00:38:51] And if you look at the American Eagle ad or the Pepsi ad, this went through many, many, many, many, many layers of approvals, most likely 90% of the time by people who didn’t have the lived experience to realize, “Oh, that might be offensive.” And so, yeah, there’s opportunity for a, a come to Jesus moment and a, “Okay, I didn’t realize that.”

[00:39:14] Are these high paid executives in the

The real payoff hiding behind every single lie is the money: 💵🎯📉

John Pabon: [00:39:15] corner suite caring enough to do that? Probably not, right? So it’s not a genuine, “Okay, I didn’t understand that that could be wrong.” It’s just, “Okay, yeah, I don’t have that lived experience. I don’t see how that was wrong.” And so there is no, no moment there where they might have a bit of introspection and say, “Hey, I probably should have thought more about this.”

[00:39:37] No, they’re just onto the next campaign, which is the unfortunate reality.

Bruce Anthony: [00:39:41] And what is the benefit of all this greenwashing and bluewashing, right? Like, what, what’s the bottom line? Why deceive the people? I know what you’re gonna say, but I, I, I need you to give that a- answer to my audience because they might be thinking, “Well, I don’t even see what the big deal is.” And what, what is it that these companies, the, the government, these influencers get from the green- and bluewashing?

John Pabon: [00:40:04] Cue any number of songs involving money. It’s all about money at the end of the day, right? So it, it absolutely comes back to that. And what we talked about the very beginning of companies not having that long-term vision, not realizing that the things they’re doing today to lie to people are gonna come back and bite them in the butt in the not too distant future.

[00:40:23] Companies still don’t realize this because we are very squarely, as you mentioned with the Prime example, in, in a moment where people aren’t doing enough to push back against these companies. They sort of feel despondent. They don’t think that anything they do is going to change things, so why even bother?

[00:40:38] I get that. I get that. There was a recent study that found 56% of young people, Gen Z and younger, believe humanity is doomed. So if, if more than half the next generation have given up before they’ve started, what are you supposed to do with that, right? So I, I get it. I absolutely get it, and that’s kind of where we are now.

[00:40:54] So companies are just raking in this money while they can. The smart ones either have that long-term vision and are trying to change their ways or make a difference or get back to how they started. A lot of companies started, like you mentioned with Facebook, with this community social-oriented mindset, so they’re trying to get back to that.

[00:41:11] Again, a slow process, but that’s happening in, in drips and drabs. But for most companies, they see— they kinda see the writing on the wall. They know their days are numbered in some respects, so why not just burn everything down? It’s very nihilistic. Why not just burn it all down and get as much money as I can while it’s happening?

[00:41:28] Which is… See, uh, what I said about being pessimistic?

Bruce Anthony: Yeah,

John Pabon: [00:41:32] That’s, that’s— I don’t think it gets more pessimistic than that statement I just said

The people least responsible are the ones who pay the price: 🌊🏚 ⚖

John Pabon: [00:41:35] there, but I didn’t mean it that way.

Bruce Anthony: [00:41:38] Well, Ultron and, and, uh, Vision said they’re doomed. Yes, they are, but there’s a beauty in that ‘cause they’re living. Yeah, we are eventually doomed, but there is a beauty in the living. But with that being said, companies are raking in the money using this greenwashing and bluewashing How are communities being hurt by this?

John Pabon: [00:42:01] It’s the commun- it’s the communities that have the least effect that are the ones that are being impacted the most. Nepal is a great example. So we just saw the floods in Nepal and, uh, you know, th- that is directly cl- tied to climate change, even though nobody in the media is saying this, and that drives me up the wall.

[00:42:20] It’s directly to climate change. Now, who caused that climate change in the Himalayas? Well, again, those people in their private jets who are not going to be impacted. It’s always the communities that are marginalized, communities of color, communities in the developing world that are the ones that are bearing the brunt of this.

[00:42:35] And I, I get asked this quite a bit if I’m at a conference or, or speaking to sustainability folks: What’s the biggest difference between sustainability in the, the Global North or the West and the developing world? W- Again, I’ve spent the majority of my time in the developing world, and what I tell them is that in, in the West, we can have an academic conversation about this.

[00:42:55] We’re sitting in our boardrooms, we’re sitting in, you know, high-rise conference facilities. It’s an academic conversation. It’s those people over there. It’s not me. In the developing world, it’s roll up your sleeves, get dirty, and do the work. I, I said I was in and out of more factories than I care to remember.

[00:43:10] I, I lived on a palm oil plantation in Borneo for a while. You know, I, I’ve been to all these… And that’s not to pat my own back. It’s, it’s to show there’s a, a big difference in the outlook and the what we call a theory of change. You know, how change works between those two perspectives. So mine is very much a developing world perspective.

[00:43:27] Let’s get, let’s get dirty, let’s do the work, ‘cause it is a clear and present danger because, you know, living in a place like Shanghai, for example, it, it’s

The AI data centers and the fight over your local water supply: 💻🚱🔥

John Pabon: [00:43:35] always in your face. You are breathing dirty air, drinking dirty water, eating polluted food. You know, it’s, it’s a clear and present danger, whereas somebody in New York, I’m painting with broad strokes again, in a high-rise on Madison Avenue is not thinking about that stuff.

[00:43:49] So communities, marginalized communities are always going to bear the brunt of the impact of the decisions that happen in those corner suites and in places that most of us just will never have access to.

Bruce Anthony: [00:44:02] I, I— One thing that we can’t… Well, I mean, there is a way to get more land, but th-one of the things that really land is not growing on trees. And one of the things that I’ve noticed recently is the uproar, justifiably so, of these AI data centers going all over the US, right? And they tend to put them just like they did nuclear power plants in kind of rural areas where there’s not a lot of money, and those people are affected the most, uh, from whatever catastrophe happens.

[00:44:33] However, like I said, land isn’t growing, so these AI data centers are gonna get closer and closer to these, uh, metropolises and are going to affect the water supply. Do you see situations like that finally opening eyes of people who, like that person you described, that high-rise in New York who is completely unaware of the things that are going on that don’t affect them now, but will eventually in the future?

John Pabon: [00:45:04] The unfortunate reality of all of this is, and this is just human psychology, it’s nothing against anybody in particular, but until it affects you personally, you are less inclined to do anything about it, especially when it comes to issues like climate change. So it was, I think two years ago, there was a lot of media around how there wasn’t snow in the Alps that skiing season and how the wealthy were impacted by this.

[00:45:27] And all of a sudden, a few wealthy people started to care because it was impacting their ski season. I, I, I realize how that sounds. But, you know, these are the sort of things that until it impacts you directly, it is very rare that you’re going to do anything about it. So data centers are a great example of how people are now, especially in the developed world, this is one of those instances where they’re being directly impacted and they’re tying this to things like water supply, uh, climate change, of course, as well, just noise pollution because these things are quite noisy, and just disruption of, of their lives.

[00:46:01] So all of those are making people kind of wake up a little bit, I think, in a lot of respects. And you’re seeing a lot of this on social media where people now look at data centers as these big evil Death Stars, which they absolutely are. We don’t need this stuff in the, the scale that we are needing or using it now.

[00:46:17] And a, a great example of people kind of waking up was a response to, it was just a few days ago, The Wall Street Journal ran a piece saying that we don’t need as much water every day as we think we do, right? You’re drinking too much water. It’s not good for your health, blah, blah, blah. The response by and large is, “Oh, did a data center write this?”

[00:46:37] Or, “Oh, you know, they’re, they’re, uh, soft launching water shortages because of data centers.” So people are waking up and they’re fighting back against this. And I, I, I did a post the other day about that article saying, you know, this is kind of the, you know, the, the logical endpoint of greenwashing. If you lie enough, nobody’s gonna trust a word that comes out of

Spotting the real from the fake down the grocery store aisle: 🛒🔍🧾

John Pabon: [00:46:54] your mouth.

[00:46:55] And again, the media is complicit in their greenwashing as well. So, you know, and The Wall Street Journal of, of all the organizations, of course, it’s a right-leaning news outlet, so of course, they’re lying about climate change. Nobody’s gonna trust what you’re saying. And are they right in not trusting what The Wall Street Journal is pushing around not drinking water?

[00:47:10] Absolutely. I, I think it is, you know, sort of soft launching water shortages. So people are absolutely waking up, and I think we need more people to, to wake up even faster.

Bruce Anthony: [00:47:21] So the Wall Street Journal, New York Post, you know, these are clear examples of greenwashing and probably even bluewashing. But let’s, let’s break it down to something a little bit easier for a person to digest. And just walking into the grocery store, what are some examples when they’re strolling down the aisles of greenwashing and bluewashing?

[00:47:46] How can they tell the real from the fake?

John Pabon: [00:47:50] Yeah, that’s a great, great question. So it is really important when you’re at the store, whether that’s the grocery store or you’re, you’re doing your shopping, you know, buying some clothes, whatever it might be, to look out for a few things. So the first is what’s just essentially green speak, marketing speak, right?

[00:48:07] So if you’re looking at a package, for example, and you turn it around and you’re reading the back of it, and something just doesn’t feel right, like they’re using too much scientific jargon or statistics that they can’t back up, you might wanna take a minute and really examine what’s going on there because they may be lying to you.

[00:48:25] So that’s certainly one way. The second, and I’m gonna use a fancy term, but then I’m gonna break it down, is the use of semiotics. Now, semiotics is marketing, a marketing word where people and companies use colors and symbols to denote meaning, and you see this a lot. In the greenwashing space, the one you see quite a bit is a green box. Okay, so your box is green. What does that mean? Does, does that mean you’re sustainable? No, but they’re trying to give the impression they are just by painting the box green. Or they’ll use pretty images. Uh, my— Some of my least favorite favorites are car commercials where a car is driving through a pristine forest.

[00:49:04] It’s still a car, right? So they’re, they’re trying to give an impression of something that they can’t really back up. So be careful of those sort of images as well. The other thing are certificates. So sometimes organizations or companies will have stamps of approval on their packages. Some are very, very reputable.

[00:49:21] The biggest one that most people might recognize is a little tree frog. It’s called the Rainforest Alliance. You see it on things like cocoa, coffee, tea, and a company that has that stamp on their pack means that they’ve gone through a pretty rigorous certification. So they’re good. You can trust them. Uh, the B Corp certification, so it’s a black and white B in a circle.

[00:49:42] That’s a good one to look out for as well. That means a company is quite sustainable. So keep an eye out for those. And the last is really to just kinda trust your gut. A lot of times these companies think they’re smarter than they are. It’s, it’s pretty easy to see through some of this stuff once you are— you have your eyes open and you realize it’s happening.

[00:49:59] You go, “Okay, I, I can sort of see how they’re trying to lie.” There are plenty of choices at the grocery store especially, so if something feels a little bit off, put it down and then get something else. And, uh, one little additional one, and nobody’s really gonna wanna hear this, and I hate that I have to say it, but in, in our current reality and where we are in the universe and in our timeline, you’re gonna have to research.

[00:50:19] You’re gonna have to pull out your phone and do a bit of research on your own. I’m sorry, but that’s just the clear reality if you wanna make the right decision. I don’t wanna do that. I get it. I know you’re not gonna wanna do that. Nobody’s gonna wanna do that, but that’s sort of where we are. So if you wanna fight back against these companies that are doing the wrong thing, pull out your phone.

[00:50:35] You have all the information in the world in the palm of your hand. Spend two seconds and do a quick search and find out what the truth really is.​

Bruce Anthony: [00:50:42] Look, you are preaching literally what this podcast is about. You are talking to a researcher when I do the show with my sister, two researchers. So we will always, mm, this sound a little funky. Let me go ahead. Google can give you a lot of information. Now you gotta check your sources ‘cause Google will give you, will pull from everything, so check the sources.

[00:51:15] But yes, ladies and gentlemen, you don’t know something? Don’t just fly by the seat of your pants. Pull the little computer out in your phone, in your, in your pocket. That’s your phone. Type in something in Google and figure it out. Do some research. Look, Jon, thank you for saying that because it needs to be stressed more and more and more. People that have been listening to this podcast, you warned them. You said it’s gonna sound a little pessimistic, right? And you also said that you didn’t wanna do what about

Are there any genuinely good companies still left out there: 🤔✅🏆

Bruce Anthony: [00:51:49] isms, right? Where a company will do good and then people say, “Well, look about that bad,” or they’ll do bad and then people say, “Well, what about the good?” In the space that you’re in right now, are there any just good companies? I mean, just good. Or has this entire economy of do good ca- captured all of these companies and there is no company that’s completely clean?

John Pabon: [00:52:18] Look, well, look, there is no such thing as a perfect company. We’ll start out with that, right? We know that. No such thing. So if we take that as our, our basis of reality, then yeah, there are companies that are doing far better than others. Uh, the kind of the poster child of this is Patagonia until recently.

[00:52:32] We’re not gonna get into the, the gory details of that. But Patagonia, the clothing company, they do amazing things, and they’re a company that if somebody is looking for clothing and they can afford that, I understand that’s coming from a, a space of privilege if you can, that’s great. Go absolutely with Patagonia.

[00:52:47] There are other smaller organizations, usually local, more local or national organizations that tend to do quite well. I think about here in, in Melbourne, Australia, there are plenty of, let’s call them… They’re local companies, even though they have a sort of a, a couple outfits, but they’re not multinational organizations.

[00:53:06] They do amazing things too. A lot of those that I was mentioning with the, the B logo, the B Corp, B black and white in a circle logo, they’re really great organizations that are, are doing amazing things. Uh, let’s see who else, and I’m sure people are gonna say, “Oh, what about, what about…” I know this is gonna happen when I say these names.

[00:53:21] Uh, Oatly is a good organization. The, the milk company, they do great things. Uh, there are some— Hmm, this is the one that’s gonna throw people

Patagonia and its slow fall from planet first to private equity: 🧥📉💰

John Pabon: [00:53:29] for a loop. Walmart is a good organization.

Bruce Anthony: [00:53:32] What? Hold

[00:53:33] on. Wha- I, wanna get to Walmart. I wanna get to Walmart. I wanna get to Walmart, but Jon, you skipped over something and I’m messy, and we can’t just, we can’t just skip over it. A, a friend of mine took me into a Patagonia store last year, and I was like, “This is all highfalutin. I, I, I wanna get outta here.”

[00:53:53] But I heard that they do a lot of great things. What is the, the current controversy? ‘Cause you said, “I don’t wanna get into that,” but I, uh, I mean, you, you kinda, you kinda opened the

John Pabon: [00:54:03] So for, uh, you’re right. Fair, I did. Uh, so for years Patagonia was kind of the, the poster child of a good sustainable company. They started off really, uh, with, uh, more of a so- as a social enterprise. They’ve been doing that for decades. Uh, they give back to the planet. They are really good with, uh, their clothing.

[00:54:19] So essentially if you buy something from them and it gets a hole in it or you’ve worn it out, ‘cause a lot of it is hiking gear, you take it back, they either fix it for you, so they’ll sew it up, or you trade it in for a new, you know, piece of clothing. Great sort of business model. Amazing. And they’ve done amazing things.

[00:54:36] And in 2022, I believe, their founder, basically he was retiring and he secured all of the board seats, the, the shareholder seats for the planet. So he, he created some sort of clever accounting where now the business actually belongs to planet Earth. I don’t know how it works. It’s not my field of, of expertise, but that’s sort of, you know, how serious they were about doing good for the planet and society.

[00:55:01] But then as we’ve seen happen time and time again, private equity got involved, and so now they’ve, they’ve sort of devolved into a, a lot of equity squabbles. The most recent was with a, a drag queen activist called Pattygonia. Uh, so they sued her earlier this year, I believe, for, uh, trademark infringement instead of realizing that, uh, obviously there was a, a really good match there where they could have used each other’s platforms to help each other out.

[00:55:29] But that didn’t happen. So you can see the timbre of the company really changing from one of good for the planet to, uh, more private equity based. So that’s the controversy with Patagonia. Uh, but that doesn’t mean stop shopping with them if you can afford it. I know it’s, uh, again, it’s coming from a place of privilege.

[00:55:44] It’s very expensive. And, uh, that too, I think is something that when we talk about

The Walmart paradox, a villain at home and a hero once abroad: 🛒😈😇

John Pabon: [00:55:48] sustainability, along with researching, you’re probably gonna have to pay more if you, you know, you want to buy something truly sustainable, and that’s just the reality of things unfortunately. To, to be a sustainable company, to have a sustainable product, it costs more to produce mostly because you’re actually people— paying people not slave wages.

[00:56:07] That’s really what it comes down to. Like, you think of things like fast fashion, the Uniqlo’s and the Shein’s of the world. Yeah, you might pay $2 for that T-shirt, but somewhere along the line, someone else is paying it in blood and sweat. So we have, we have to remember that as well. It’s not always the proper cost that we’re paying.

Bruce Anthony: [00:56:24] Well, I mean, that leads me straight into Walmart because, I mean, you said Walmart does some

John Pabon: [00:56:30] we didn’t plan

Bruce Anthony: [00:56:31] they actually pay… No. I mean, they pay slave labor, right? They, they specifically have a practice where they keep people from working full-time, where they

John Pabon: [00:56:42] the United States

Bruce Anthony: [00:56:43] in the United States, and, and, and they generate money from having these people Work under full-time, being underpaid, signing up for social issues, social programs, and then coming back to the store to shop with those social programs, SNAP being one of them.

[00:57:05] So please tell me, please, how is Walmart one of those good companies?

John Pabon: [00:57:10] Yep. So, and this goes back to something that I, I think we touched on a little bit earlier, which is, and I think it was through the lens of Target, which obviously is one of their big competitors. What, what happens in the US is important, and it, it gets the lion’s share of the media, but it’s just a microcosm of these multinational businesses, right?

[00:57:25] It’s only one part. So while the US may be horrendous, and in the US, Walmart absolutely, and they have been since the start. They’re, they’re Satan incarnate. They’re really bad as a company. But in places like China, and, and I— this is not a promo for Walmart. I, I worked as a consultant for them, not with them.

[00:57:43] Uh, for, for many years, we cr- we developed and, and did this program called the Women in Factories program. And what we would do is we would go into their 60-ish factories across China, and we would offer basically life education, let’s call it that, because a lot of times these people who are working in these factories don’t, don’t get these sort of things in school.

[00:58:03] So anything from financial literacy to reproductive health to, uh, communications and, and on-the-job training to sort of level up and go from blue collar to white collar, these sorts of things that otherwise, uh, because of the scale and size of China, the government can’t do, society is not doing, and, and the education is not doing.

[00:58:23] So the Walmart Foundation sponsored this, and they invested all the money into doing this because they saw, again, that long-term trajectory of, of building out happier, healthier, more productive workers. Obviously, that’s the pragmatic side. But the altruistic side means you create more, more socially conscious people that are just living happier, more fulfilled lives.

[00:58:45] And the reason I say that Walmart from that perspective is good is because we’re not talking about five or 10 or 15 women going through this program. Over the course of the three-year program, I think there were over a million women that went through the program. And that’s the kind of scale that only…

[00:59:00] And, and the reason why, and we didn’t talk about this at all, but the reason why I work with the private sector is because that’s the scale that only a private sector company can have when it comes to impacting in a positive way the lives of, of people and the future of the planet. Now, is every company doing that at that scale?

[00:59:16] No. Is Walmart talking about the fact they did that? No. Which drives me up the wall ‘cause they should talk about that, but I get why they don’t, because what’s

How you can make sustainability feel sexy instead of just scary: 💃✨🌱

John Pabon: [00:59:24] happening in the US means it’s, uh, pretty abhorrent as a company from a, a PR perspective. I get that. But it’s not as if these large corporations are sitting around doing nothing all the time.

[00:59:35] Some are doing amazing things, impacting people and the planet at scale that we just never hear about. But don’t shop at Walmart.

Bruce Anthony: [00:59:42] ladies and gentlemen,

John Pabon: [00:59:44] you’re in the US, don’t shop there.

Bruce Anthony: [00:59:46] Well, ladies and gentlemen, you heard it here on the podcast, “Unsolicited Perspectives,” first and foremost, that Walmart does good everywhere else except for in the US.

John Pabon: [00:59:57] Pretty much.

Bruce Anthony: [00:59:58] Yeah. Um, y- because you’re in sustainability, you’ve kind of created this, this, this, I don’t know if it’s a slogan or momentum or push to make sustainability sexy and make it not scary.

[01:00:18] Can you explain to me what that means and what type of smart communication and spinning can create a prettier version of everything that you were pessimistic about in this conversation?

John Pabon: [01:00:36] absolutely. So in my, uh, in my, my… I hate saying this. In my first book, um, it is Sustainability For The Rest of Us, I, I talk about how we’ve… Can, can I use profanity?

Bruce Anthony: [01:00:49] Little bit. Yeah, go ahead

John Pabon: [01:00:50] Okay, there’s a chapter called “Don’t Be a Dick,” because I, I think, you know… That doesn’t count. Okay. It’s not the C-bomb. Uh, don’t be a dick.

[01:00:57] So it, it’s, it’s, uh, around this idea that we’ve done, and it just goes back to communications, we’ve done a really bad job at communicating what we do, but also bringing people along with us on that journey, right? It’s always been very much led by, and God bless them, activists, you know, the greenies, the, the hippies like my mom was, that, uh, have been the poster children for the movement.

[01:01:18] And if that is who is on the, the posters for sustainability, 99% of the population doesn’t want anything to do with them, right? They’re looking at them going, “I, I, uh, that’s, that’s gross. I don’t want anything to do with that.” Meanwhile, the majority of people in this field, my colleagues, they kinda… They’re just normal people like me, right?

[01:01:34] We’re not hippies. We’re not walking around without our shoes, at least not anymore, uh, on, on a field somewhere at some festival, right? We’re just normal people going about our daily lives. So I think that’s kinda step one is, is showing the true face of this, and that it’s not a fringe thing anymore led by greenies and activists, and you don’t need to go hang off the side of a whaling ship to, to make a difference, right?

[01:01:54] There are things you can do in your daily life, day in and day out, that will do that for you. There’s also academics that love to overanalyze and, and make really confusing scientific jargon or, or convoluted methodologies. We love this, and I, I cannot stand them, and they exist all throughout this space.

[01:02:13] And, you know, luckily, a lot of people are sort of laughing at them now. They’re important. Sure, the scientists are absolutely important, but not the ones that just sit on their high horse in academia and don’t actually roll up their sleeves and do anything important. So that is another thing that we need to sort of change.

[01:02:27] And I think when I talk about making sustainability sexy or, or really simplifying it, it’s just about showing the true nature and the true face of, A, who, who is behind all of this, and that it’s not too different to, to everybody else. B, that there are simple things that everybody can do day in and day out.

[01:02:44] You don’t need to, again, go hang off the side of a whaling ship or, or go put yourself in harm’s way. That’s not necessary

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John Pabon: [01:02:49] at all to actually make a difference. And I think if we start from that perspective and really changing the psychology of people, and we talked a few times throughout this podcast on that, whether that is changing the idea of utopianism to incremental change, uh, looking at all of these, these different perspectives and just opening your eyes a little bit.

[01:03:08] That— All of that put together is gonna go a long way towards making this space a lot more approachable. So I say sexy, it’s probably more appropriate to say approachable versus just something that people look at and kind— sort of point and go, “I don’t know about all that sustainability stuff.”

Bruce Anthony: [01:03:23] Yeah. There are gonna be people that were listening and watching to this interview, and their interests have been piqued, and they wanna learn more. Where can they go to learn more about what you’re talking about? ‘Cause you got books. You’ve got books

John Pabon: [01:03:40] Once you’re on the, the, the writing hamster wheel, you cannot get off. So, uh, yes, I have, I have three books, uh, out currently. So I have “Sustainability for the Rest of Us,” “The Great Greenwashing,” which we talked about today mostly, and then “Strategic Sustainability,” which is more of a, a business book.

[01:03:57] If you’re in the business world, please check that out. It just came out a few months ago. And then my new book will come out next year called “Eat the Rich.” I’m really excited for that. So definitely check out the books. Uh, I’m kind of… I hate that I’m about to say this. I’m big on TikTok. So, uh, and I, I love TikTok not because I do dancing, because I do not do dancing, but because I can go into longer form and, and really explain things with a bit more depth.

[01:04:19] And uh there’s a nice little community there too. So if you’re on TikTok, go check me out there, John Pabon, and then also on Instagram. I’ve just started getting a bit of a following so, uh, you can check me out there if you’re anti-TikTok.

Bruce Anthony: [01:04:34] All right. John, I wanna thank you for coming on the show, and I, I’ve learned so much, and it’s, it’s funny to actually put some evidence behind your conspiracy, right? Like, you know deep down inside, like, “This company, I don’t believe this shit that they talking about.” But to know that yes, they’re lying to you, and this is the reason why.

[01:05:02] It’s that dollar dollar bill, y’all. To, to put that in reality, get, get that perspective, I, I thank you so much for coming on this show and, and just, uh, expanding our knowledge on greenwashing and bluewashing and sustainability further than “Let’s just peace, man. Let’s just not use as much water and, and go green.”

[01:05:24] Like, actually understand what it is, even if it’s only an hour and it’s a small bit of understanding. I really appreciate you coming on the show

John Pabon: [01:05:32] No, no, no. Thanks for having me. And, and absolutely do all that. Go green, use less water, all that sort of stuff. But know that, you know, f- and this is, this is something, I think this is actually probably a good sp- spot to, to leave on. It’s something I talk about in sustainability for the rest of us. You don’t need to do it all, right?

[01:05:46] We are, we are altruists, people that care, wanna do everything. I wanna walk outside, I want to feed every homeless person, adopt every stray dog, and then go read to the elderly on a weekend while I’m building a house for somebody that doesn’t have one. You can’t do that. You’re only one person, right? So find what it is you’re passionate about, and know that there

Make them truly earn your trust then watch what they do next: 🤝👁💯

John Pabon: [01:06:03] are eight billion people around the world that will pick up where you can’t.

[01:06:06] You don’t need to do it all. So find what it is you’re passionate about, what it is you care about, you have a special skill in, or if you’re fortunate, you, you can invest a bit of money in. We need money too. Let’s not, let’s not, uh, you know, pretend that doesn’t exist. And, and just focus on that. Almost have, have blinders on your eyes and be laser-focused on that because that way you can do the most good versus trying to do a bunch of different stuff and only kinda half-assing it.

[01:06:28] So find your passion point and, and go for it

Bruce Anthony: [01:06:31] That’s a great way to end, John. Thank you so much for coming on the show today. I really appreciate it

John Pabon: [01:06:35] Absolutely. Thanks for having me

Bruce Anthony: [01:06:37] So we opened this whole conversation talking about trust, about what happens when you believe somebody, and then you find out the version of them you believed in wasn’t really real. And I think that’s what makes this conversation with Jon hit a little differently, because we came into this asking a pretty simple question: Is the company lying to me?

[01:07:00] But by the end of the conversation, I don’t think that’s the question anymore. Or a better question is, what do they get if I believe them? Because think about it. If I believe the company cares about their environment, I might buy their product. If I believe they care about racial justice, I might support their brand.

[01:07:20] If I believe they actually stand for something, I might give them my money, my attention, and my loyalty. And that’s the part we don’t always want to admit, that trust has value. And there are people and corporations who know exactly how valuable it is. Jon talked about how companies can use sustainability, social justice, all of these things that sound good and feel good to create an image of themselves that may not have much to do with what they’re actually doing.

[01:07:55] And dig this here. Here’s the uncomfortable part people don’t want to talk about. Who’s checking their work? Because a lot of the time, nobody is. There’s no referee standing there making sure that they keep the promises that they made. They could put the pretty words on the website. They can make a commercial.

[01:08:14] They could put the black square up. They could put that green leaves on the packaging. They could tell you that they’re changing the world, and then you have to decide whether you believe them. And when you don’t look any deeper, you— they don’t have to prove it. That’s why this matters. Because when the consequences finally show up, they’re not always landing on the people who made the promise.

[01:08:39] They’re landing on the communities that were already dealing with the consequences. People who already had less power, people who already had less money, people who already had less of a voice. And that’s the part that should piss you off, not because you need to walk around believing every corporation is evil.

[01:08:58] That’s lazy too. Jon was very clear about something I think is important. There are companies doing real work. There are people doing real work. There is good actually happening. But just because something sounds good doesn’t mean it is good.

[01:09:15] And just because somebody tells you they’re one of the good ones doesn’t mean that you have to take their word for it. That’s where skepticism comes in. Not cynicism, because cynicism says everybody is lying, so why bother? Skepticism says, show me. And I think that’s what the attitudes that we all need to have.

[01:09:39] Show me. Let me see what you’re actually doing. Why don’t you also turn the package around, read the fine print, look at receipts. Guess what? Follow the money, and when something doesn’t feel right, don’t immediately talk yourself out of it just because the marketing is good. Do the work. You got a phone, ladies and gentlemen.

[01:10:03] It’s in your hand. Take that bad boy out because it can answer a lot of questions for you in ten minutes. But here’s the thing, sometimes we don’t actually wanna know. Sometimes we’d rather believe the comfortable story than dealing with the uncomfortable truth. Don’t be that person. I’m not saying you have to become an investigative journalist every time you buy a damn bottle of shampoo or some chips or anything like that.

[01:10:29] You don’t have to save the planet by Friday. You don’t have to fix every social problem. You don’t have to carry every issue on your back. John said something toward the end of this conversation that I really, really appreciated. He said, “You don’t have to do it all.” So find a thing that you actually care about.

[01:10:49] Get serious about it. Put your energy into it, because if 8 billion people each did a little bit of something, instead of everybody trying to do everything, we’d probably get a hell of a lot further. And maybe that’s a bigger lesson here. Don’t stop believing in people. Don’t stop believing that companies can change.

[01:11:11] Don’t stop believing that doing good is possible. Just stop giving your trust away for free, because trust isn’t something that somebody gets because they made a commercial about caring. Trust isn’t something that they get because they put the right words on their website. Trust isn’t even something that they get just because they tell you that they’re one of the good ones. Make these people, make these companies, make these influencers earn your trust, and then watch what they do when nobody is looking, because that’s where the truth typically lies.

[01:11:50] I wanna thank you for listening. I wanna thank you for watching, and until next time, as always, I’ll holla

[01:12:00] Woo. That was a hell of a show. Thank you for rocking with us here on Unsolicited Perspectives with Bruce Anthony. Now, before you go, don’t forget to follow, subscribe, like, comment, and share our podcast. Wherever you’re listening or watching it to it, pass it along to your friends. If you enjoy it, that means the people that you rock, we’ll enjoy it also.

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[01:13:25] Audi 5,000 Peace.